8 Ways Media Brands Are Driving Subscriber Growth

Are you ready to learn how to drive subscriber growth in your subscription business? This on-demand webinar focuses on specific subscriber growth tactics that

Are you ready to learn how to drive subscriber growth in your subscription business? 

This on-demand webinar focuses on specific subscriber growth tactics that subscription media companies can take and test in their own businesses. Sarah McCredie, Director of Product Marketing at Recurly, teaches:

  • How to optimize the media subscriber lifecycle,
  • Product positioning ideas that drive long-term relationships,
  • Payments strategies to drive growth,
  • Successful tactics and tests run by leading brands, and
  • Future trends to plan for that impact subscriber growth.

On-Demand Playback

Presentation Slides (PDF)

Click here to download the slides.

About Our Experts

Sarah McCredie, Director of Product Marketing, Recurly

Sarah leads integrated marketing campaigns at Recurly, a leading subscription management and billing platform that works with brands like FabFitFun, TIME, and SoundCloud to drive subscriber growth. Sarah has 13+ years of experience working with direct-to-consumer and media brands through Shopify, Campaign Monitor, and Unbounce.

About Kathy Greenler Sexton, CEO, Subscription Insider 

Kathy Greenler Sexton is the CEO of Subscription Insider and a recognized expert in subscription business models, market strategy, brand development, and information products. Subscription Insider is an information company focused on delivering news and insight for growing profitable subscription businesses. Learn more at www.subscriptioninsider.com and www.subscriptionshow.com 

Transcript

Kathy:

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Subscription Insider’s webinar, Eight Ways Media Brands are Driving Subscription Growth. So, I am Kathy Greenler Sexton, I’m the CEO of Subscription Insider, and today’s webinar is one of the many programs we love to do to help you run and operate your business more profitably. And today I am so excited because we have Sarah McCredie in the house, who is with us from Recurly. She is their Director of Product Marketing. I want to remind everybody that today’s webinar, Sarah’s going to be going through quite a lot of different ideas for you, so get your pencils ready, write them down. We are going to be making this available on-demand after this session, we’ll be sending you out an email tonight. And also for our members, we’ll be loading this up in the member portal as well tonight, too. So with that, let me… Well, thank you, June, for reminding me to say this. If you have any questions at any point, make sure you put them in the chat, we’re going to be taking questions. Let’s get to it.

Kathy:

So, for those of you who are not familiar with Subscription Insider, our mission is to help you, to provide insight to help you grow your subscription businesses. We have a few things that I would like just to make sure are on your calendar, beyond today’s webinar. On Wednesday next week, we have a member meetup. I’ll be hosting that. We’re going to be doing a mini-training on choosing technology, as well as talking about inflation and anything else that our members, you, want to be talking about. On Thursday, May 12th, Robbie Kellman Baxter is going to be joining me, and we’re going to be talking about keys that are hidden in plain site to help you with retention. And then we have an executive round table on May 17th, and we’re going to be reviewing a forced research report that’s talking about the economics of retention. Are you noticing a theme here about retention? It’s top of mind for so many of us right now in subscriptions, so we’ll be covering that. And if you can go to the next slide, Sarah.

Kathy:

Our upcoming subscription show will be addressing subscriptions, acquisition, strategy, payment processing, and more, and it’s really designed to give you practical, actionable information for what’s coming at all of our subscription businesses in 2022 and beyond. We’ll be hosting this in New York City and via live stream. The main conference is November 9th and 10th. And we’ll also be hosting some boot camps, which will be covering the fundamentals of payments, retention, acquisition, compliance, and more on November 8th. Heads up that at the end of this month on April 30th at midnight, there is a price increase. So, if you are thinking of getting a ticket, the cheapest tickets that we have are actually right now, so heads up on that. So with that, I’m going to hand the mic over to Sarah. We have a lot of information to go through. And I know Sarah, she is so smart about all things subscriptions. We are in good hands. Sarah, take it away.

Sarah:

Yeah. Hi, everyone. Great to meet you. I’m going to try to keep this as dynamic as I can because I know a lot of us are sitting in our living rooms or working from home, but really excited to be here. I’ve worked with Kathy and the Subscription Insider team for over two years now, so I really love just having these types of conversations with brands. I’ve also participated in a lot of round tables. So, a lot of what I’m going to share today is actually directly from some of our largest customers and these types of more intimate conversations around strategies that are working, not working, challenges, et cetera. So I’m here just to share everything I’ve learned in the last two years within the subscription space. But I also have over 15 years experience. I used to be at Shopify, was at Campaign Monitors. So anything around email, engagement, I can geek out over conversion. I was at Unbound as well, so anything around landing page and designing and packaging for value.

Sarah:

So, that’s where I’m coming at from today. But let’s dive in because I know we don’t have a ton of time. So, for those not familiar with Recurly, we’ve been around for over 10 years and we power over 2,000 brands globally. We empower them to deliver the best subscriber experience, so that’s everything across the entire subscriber life cycle, so everything from acquisition, pricing, packaging, discounts, coupons, plans, gift cards. We just make it really, really easy for you to spin that all up in minutes instead of your dev teams, or if you’re on a clunkier platform, that taking a lot more time and resources. And then we really specialize around retention, especially revenue recovery, so I’m going to dive into that topic of it today.

Sarah:

And then all things around understanding your business, knowing what’s working, what’s not working, getting a really holistic view of your subscription business. So, you need a platform that’s built for a subscription model, and we have been since day one. So the logos I have here are specifically media and publishing because that’s what we’re here to talk about today. So, here are some of the brands that have Recurly powering their subscriptions behind the scenes, but we also support other verticals across consumer goods and retail like FabFitFun and BarkBox and a lot of like SaaS brands as well. So, any questions around Recurly, let me know at the end of this presentation, or you can just shoot me an email. So, let’s dive in.

Sarah:

Eight things. There’s a lot to pack into Kathy’s point as well. We’ll have time for questions at the end and you can just let me know directly. But the first thing I wanted to cover is, when we look at the world of subscriptions, I think a big mistake I see a lot of brands making is everyone shifting to a subscription model. Even consumer goods brands are looking at how they take glossier moves for a model of a recurring purchase on their cleanser or lip gloss, et cetera. And then I find that you’re packaging everything within that subscription, and you’re also forgetting to provide that value outside of the subscription because that is just as important. We’re losing sight of that whole brand experience and what drives people to actually purchase that subscription in the long term and stay an engaged, loyal customer.

Sarah:

So, Time does a really great job at this. Laurie runs consumer growth, if she’s on this call shout out to Laurie, but she has a great sentiment that she always is driving home to her team and it’s that I don’t need them to buy today, I need them to buy tomorrow. So, it’s a good thing to check yourself when you’re rushing to drive a big promotion or discount or making these quick win decisions, looking at that long tail impact, but also looking at like, does this actually have to be, I know we’re trying to drive paid subscriptions right now, but does this have to be gated beyond the paid subscription or is this long term going to drive more value if it’s maybe something more upfront? So, Time does an amazing job doing these huge events that are free events and Instagram lives and hosting panels and awards, and all these things that you can access outside of the paid subscription. But it’s getting people into their brand world and being able to start gauging with them to then do the up sale on the paid subscription front.

Sarah:

So, I think that’s something to look at. And especially in the publishing world, there’s a lot of, read your five articles and then bam, paywall and give us your credit card, and you’re missing out on that key step along for registration. So that’s a big shift I’m seeing in the publishing space, is okay, give them… What does that whole subscriber journey look like? What sort of free brand experience are you offering? And then think of what else you could do before hitting them with a paywall for a paid subscription and that value. Because you getting their contact information, especially with what’s happening in terms of like cooking, we need to find other ways to get people into that subscriber life cycle. So, just think of that in terms of more of that brand-building play and getting people introduced before that paid subscription wall.

Sarah:

A lot of creative things people are doing in the partnership realm, I think that’s a big theme coming out in media. It was very cutthroat and competitive, but now I’m realizing I’m seeing a lot more collaboration. Because it’s like the more everyone shares around data, subscribers, trends, what’s working, what’s not, that’s going to help you better engage your subscribers. And that’s in the long tail. And the reality is, people are subscribing to three to five things. Recurly just launched a survey, the average consumer is spending over $200 a month on subscriptions. So, there’s a lot of different partners that are at play and thinking of things more collaboratively versus from a competition side. So again, all ties back to the idea of brand building, what you can do there and some interesting things on social as well. So, I think Time is a really good example, if anyone wants to look at the interesting things they’re doing, follow them on social, see what they’re promoting. Because I think they do a really good job at looking at that entire subscriber life cycle, not just what’s packaged within the paid subscription.

Sarah:

And then number two, let’s dive into options. So big shift, I think subscriptions have been around forever, traditional subscriptions. And then a lot of other businesses that maybe didn’t look at subscriptions for their offering are now moving towards that model. But it’s not a one size fits all approach. Not at all. And I think a lot of people launch their subscription with that in mind, so you have one plan and that’s it, and you get everything. We’re seeing a lot more flexibility and then every other brand is starting to offer more flexibility in order to keep up, and that’s what customers are demanding now, that is the reality of the space now. So, things around discounting, coupons, promotions, blending physical and digital offers. We’re seeing a lot of streamers streaming media brands move in launching e-commerce, they’re having merch stores, they’re diversifying their products, they have NFT offerings. There’s a lot of different creative ways, even look at New York Times purchasing Wordle. I think we’re going to see a lot more of that. I know Wordle’s still free, but obviously they’re figuring out how to monetize that.

Sarah:

And I think we’re going to see a lot more interesting acquisitions in the media and subscription space in diversifying their product. It’s a big theme that’s coming up in a lot of conversations with our merchants. And then also looking at how you can bundle certain things within your product, and then also one time and recurring. So we had a conversation with a pretty big entertainment brand in the states and they’re looking at, it’s a sports company, and so they were looking at, why don’t we offer the ability for someone to just watch one game? If it’s a playoff season and somebody just wants to purchase one all-star game or whatever, what does that look like? What does that cost? And how can we get a little more flexible with how we’re, again, monetizing? And from a subscription perspective, that’s maybe your way in the door with certain subscribers and then in your upselling on that membership model down the road, but looking at one-time payments, micropayments.

Sarah:

And then another really interesting thing one of our big publishing brands is about to launch is adding donations into their subscription. So, thinking beyond just when you are providing value as a business within your subscription model, sometimes that value is intrinsic, and it’s that feel-good model. So, if I’m paying for Netflix and I can add an extra $2 every month, this happens all the time already when we’re at grocery stores and this and that, and how many times do they get you on that extra dollar to round up for charity? Well, that’s happening on the digital subscriptions side as well. So, having a platform that enables you to experiment with all of these different ideas is just really important. So I think the donation side is something that’s really interesting that I think we might see more of in the future.

Sarah:

And payments. Again, there’s eight things, so I had to pack a lot into eight, but obviously, payments is a huge piece. If you’re managing a subscription business at scale, I think a lot of people underestimate the complexity once you shift to subscriptions. You’re managing millions of subscribers, globally, different regions, different payment methods, everyone signed up on a different card, different time of day. And then you’re managing that at an ongoing cadence. So, payments is such a key piece. And I find that there’s not a lot of in-house expertise in payments. So again, making sure you have the right partners, whether that’s platform tech agency to help guide you to make those right decisions. Because as you know, there’s dozens of gateways and there’s a lot of things to consider that. So, from a payments perspective, some interesting things, we just launched Venmo and we’re seeing an uptake with that as a payment method. And then another thing to keep in mind is ensuring that you are allowing your subscribers to have multiple payment methods on file.

Sarah:

So this is, I think, is something that’s often overlooked, but a lot of times if someone signs up, say with a gift card, that gift card’s going to run out, and then all of a sudden their subscription is canceled. So, if you sign up for, say a FabFitFun box, with a gift card, but then right at that point of checkout, you can also add that additional payment methods so that their service isn’t interrupted because you already have that set up on the back end. Crypto is something that’s really interesting, Sling TV just launched crypto. I think that’s a really interesting space, obviously, anyone watching is probably paying attention as well. But what that means for the world of subscriptions, a lot of things from a global perspective, which I’ll dive into in a little bit around payments. And then PayPal, I always like to call out PayPal because I personally haven’t used PayPal in 11 years, but there’s a lot of people that use PayPal. And so, on average, we’re seeing about a 10% revenue lift once brands are adding PayPal as a payment option.

Sarah:

And then on the gateway side as well, a lot of brands only have a single gateway and that’s what they’re transacting through. But as you know, with technology you shouldn’t 100% depend on one platform. It’s like if your whole business is built on Instagram and then you guys remember, oh, Instagram went down for like 24 hours recently and everyone was losing it. And reevaluating, oh right, we didn’t really have a backup plan of how to communicate with our customers. It’s the same thing with gateways, you need to make sure that if a gateway fails that you have a backup gateway already set up. And also, when you’re thinking of your gateway strategy globally, all these different gateways offer different payment methods. So, if you’re expanding to South America, you need to make sure you’re finding the best local partner there. So, a lot to consider on the payment side, but I’d say that’s in terms of the growth strategy and all the things you can do on the acquisition side to experiment, making sure that your payment strategy is really tight, and you’re also thinking of what’s best when you’re scaling.

Sarah:

I think a lot of people are making decisions of what’s best and maybe the cheapest rates right now, but then as you want to add additional payment methods, as you want to expand to new regions, is that partner going to be the best partner for you? So, lots of payments considerations as well in the subscription growth strategy. And then obviously, all the biggest competitive advantage you can have is delivering that competitive subscriber experience. Everyone has a story of a really bad subscription experience and you tell people, don’t ever sign up for that, it was terrible, they wouldn’t let me cancel and I was paying for this thing for six months. And that’s obviously terrible for your brand reputation, for chargebacks, everything. So, making sure you have that subscriber experience built out. And so, that’s everything from back to giving those options and flexibility, so upgrades, downgrades, add-ons, pausing, gift cards.

Sarah:

So, pause is a huge feature that I also like to plug, because not a lot of brands… It’s one of those aha things and you do usually just need it out of the box, otherwise it can be a little more complex to build custom. But just think of all of us as humans, how many times have you just had a situation, maybe you were going to the gym and all of a sudden you needed a couple months off because of something personal, or people get laid off and all of a sudden they can’t afford it, doesn’t mean that they’re not coming back. And the ability, at that cancellation point, for you to offer the pause instead of the cancel, is huge. We’ve retained upwards of 50%, 60% for certain merchants of those that end up offering pause versus not. And then that way, when they are ready to get up and running, all of that data is there, it’s one click, you have their payment on file and it’s a really seamless experience. So, when you’re thinking of subscriber experience, thinking of all those touchpoints, even down to the cancellation experience, and again, adding the flexibility.

Sarah:

So, we’re seeing a huge trend in picking and choosing what you want, creating your custom bundle, again, so add-ons, downgrade. Again, maybe one month you want to go all out and then the next it’s not, it doesn’t mean that subscriber’s any less valuable to you. And you really want to be able to provide those options, again, because long term, it’s just a better experience for them. And then everything down to customer support. Again, so many times I still hear sometimes brands saying, oh, well let’s just hide the cancel button or let’s just not include it. No. Haven’t you been there? Haven’t you been that person that just really needs to cancel something, and the pain you are causing that person and that, again, the brand effect of that is just so not worth it. So, everything around the customer experience and making sure it’s really easy for your support reps to make those changes as well within somebody’s subscription is really important, building community with others. I think that’s something that sometimes gets overlooked as well.

Sarah:

Again, everyone’s thinking, okay, what are they actually accessing within their paid subscription? But without forgetting that we’re all just humans too and there’s some intrinsic things that just, we want and to feel connected to other people that are fans of the same service. Twitch does a really great job at this, and I’m going to shout them out in a little bit as well. And then also within the media and streaming and publishing space, obviously it’s multi-device and multichannel. So, I was talking to one of our brands the other day and he is like, “Our customers maybe watching three things at once.” They’re watching a game on their phone, they’re streaming something on Netflix on their TV, and then they’re reading an article on their iPad. So, just keeping that in mind, when it comes to the UX design, the experience, that’s really, really important.

Sarah:

And then I also thought this was really interesting, one of our large streaming customers, he was saying that it’s ironic because a lot of these platforms were built out to binge everything. A lot of us grew up and everything was live, if you wanted to watch a show, you had to get home by five o’clock, turn your TV on, sit through commercials, and that was that. And so, all these platforms got built to then say, oh, that was a crappy experience, let’s make it on demand, let everyone binge-watch their entire season in three days, and that’s what everyone wants. But we’re actually seeing a shift within the gen Z demographic, where they actually want everything live again. So I thought that was a funny, ironic insight. That all these big platforms were like, oh yeah, let’s make it no commercials and bingeable and on-demand. But don’t forget, again, for different audience segments and not to make those assumptions, that what are you doing from a live content perspective? And how are you driving people back to your content if it’s a live perspective?

Sarah:

So, another media brand had mentioned they were using SMS to alert somebody that, hey, your favorite show that you’re really into just launched, click here and start watching, or set a reminder on your calendar so that you’re going to make sure you’re the first to tune in when it does launch. So those are just, again, some creative ways to just put engagement in subscriber experience at the forefront. And also a big trend within the media space, a lot of these brands have these huge shows, or again, if it’s a sports thing, it’s the one big season, and then what do you do in the six months when you’re having a downtime? What else do you have? If everyone’s signing up for, say the Walking Dead, I thought this was a good example, you have a merch store for Walking Dead content.

Sarah:

They have all AMAs and Twitter chats and they’re hosting a million things outside of when that season is. And then they also launch Talking Dead, which is a talk show about the season. And we’re seeing that in the podcast space as well. So I think, again, really thinking what that subscriber experience is, not just when someone’s actually signing up to engage with a specific piece of content, but then what else you’re doing outside of what they signed up for. And how you really recommend the right thing for them, and obviously, hopefully people have some algorithms in place, and there’s a lot of cool new technology that can support you in that. But again, just making sure you really are thinking, okay, let’s acquire everyone to sign up for the Walking Dead, but then what does that entire experience look like once they come through the door and they’re a subscriber? And then also part of the survey we just launched, so we just launched a consumer survey based on insights of what’s going to happen basically post COVID.

Sarah:

So, we surveyed a few thousand subscribers and said, what are you spending money on? What are you canceling? What do you want from brands? So, I know June’s going to link that at the end of this presentation, but a huge percentage, over 50%, wanted loyalty points and perks. I think some of these things that were traditional in offline businesses, like grocery stores and that type of thing, in the digital realm, we lose sight of some of that and trying to simplify it, but in some ways too much. But the old school loyalty member, you go to your coffee shop and you click 10 and you get the 10th free. I think some of those more traditional things that we grew up with and are used to, there is something to be said around that. It’s like, how does that translate in a world of digital subscriptions? So, I’m going to show one of my favorite examples of it. So, this is the highest res photo I could get for this presentation, but I love everything Twitch does, it’s amazing.

Sarah:

And so, this is a really great example of that whole idea of loyalty perks and members. And you really feel like you’re a member of Twitch, it’s not just… Say you’re at Netflix or something where it’s like, I just subscribed and I’m getting what everyone else gets. I think Twitch does a really good… This is a great example of, this is me, this is me as an individual, subscribing and using Twitch and being part of this larger community, so it’s almost like the Spotify wrap-up model as well that they’re doing. But I think a lot more brands can lean into that as well and see what that looks like for your business. But this is just a recap on here, to this exact user, here are your top streamers, here’s how many people you engaged with, here’s what you watch, here’s what you listen to, here’s what you tune into. It’s just such a great opportunity for engagement. And so, that’s what I wanted to dive into as well, is renewal journeys.

Sarah:

So, in the world of subscriptions, so many brands, I can’t… Everyone talks about the onboarding journey, everybody. I have had a million conversations about what that first 30 to 60 days looks like from an onboarding perspective. But very recently is when I’ve started to bring up what does that renewal journey look like? Because a lot of brands I’m talking to are shifting from a monthly model to an annual, so the whole, give a discount and sign up for a year instead of a month. And then that’s a way to immediately improve retention, and seeing a lot of success with that. But then you have to rethink some of your other tactics. It’s like, well, then you have all these people that signed up for you a year ago, and now you’re about to hit their credit card again, so we’re seeing more churn, but again, there’s positive and negatives to it. But I really think a lot of brands need to look at their renewal journey. What does that 30 to 60 days look like before that annual renewal?

Sarah:

From a payments perspective, certain payment methods have higher involuntary churn rates than others, so it’s like, let’s look at how many are on PayPal and what that might look like, and what will that impact be on that renewal? Or how engaged is a certain segment of our audience? And how do we want to message that renewal journey to a really highly engaged audience versus somebody that maybe hasn’t engaged in a few months? And we maybe don’t want to hit with them, we probably want to ease them back into making sure they’re seeing the value before you’re getting that payment. So, I think that Twitch email, the Spotify email, these are great examples of reminding them of that value, making them feel like they’re part of something greater and a true membership and community. It’s a great opportunity for feedback and to engage your subscribers. And then something that’s often overlooked is, if you do lose that subscriber, I brought it up a bit earlier is, don’t overlook that cancellation experience.

Sarah:

A lot of, I can’t tell you how many, and I’m sure you guys see this too, just as subscribing yourself to multiple services is, not just it’s crappy and you have to call customer support and somebody’s not letting you cancel. But just that whole flow, that can still be a really positive brand experience, even when someone cancels. And how many times do you cancel something, but five months later you still loved it, you still saw value, and it was just a better time for you personally to sign back up. And then there’s also some testing you can do on that cancellation experience. So, one brand that I had talked to, all they did was add an, are you sure step to their cancellation experience and they saved 30% of their subscribers. So again, there’s so many different touchpoints across that subscriber life cycle, so make sure you’re really honing in on that cancellation experience as well, making sure there’s an optional field where people can tell you exactly why they’re canceling, because you might be able to save them that way.

Sarah:

It’s a great way to get insight on product, the value you’re delivering and also adding gift options. If somebody’s canceling, say I’m a mom and I canceled my FabFitFun box because it wasn’t for me, but then I’m giving you the option to gift it, maybe actually I’m like, this would be a great gift for my daughter. That’s a way to extend that in a whole other way. So, getting flexible and again, going back to giving options. That’s the renewal piece. But Kathy, I know you and I had talked about that sooner and I just feel like that’s-

Kathy:

It’s so, so important. I cannot underscore how important it is for everybody to really think through the renewal journey. And I know we have some high-volume media and direct-to-consumer, I also know we have some niche media people on this call, these points are true for everybody. And I’m seeing this tactic of reminding me the value of what they have provided across all my subscriptions personally. And it’s so smart because every month, every year we have to remind everybody why they’re spending money with us and why our brand is so great, and why they want to have a relationship with us versus all of our competitors and all the other options in the market. This is so, so critical. So, that’s my two cents on that. I mean, engagement with your customers and really mapping that out for your own specific business, that’s going to give you a lot of ROI in spades, in terms of increased retention.

Sarah:

Yeah. And I think it’s a great opportunity to really show your brand voice as well. If you look at… It’s not just, okay, let’s input a bunch of dynamic data that shows you exactly what you’ve done and say, hey, here’s your stats, time for renewal. It’s really like Twitch, I really love their tone and voice and brand and experience and how they’re engaging. And it’s a way to talk more one on one, and especially, I’m sure you guys are seeing this, if you look at The Skimm, there’s a lot of big newsletter strategies that have shifted where it went away from, a lot of brands were just like, okay, let’s automate everything around email, let’s send everyone the same message and dynamically input the number, the data, and their first name and call it a day.

Sarah:

But there’s a big shift towards having more of that curated voice and tone, and giving the driver’s seat to your editors. In the publishing world, a lot of them are saying, okay, here, the sports editor or whatever, you curate the newsletter, you talk to our audience more one-to-one versus one to many. And so, this renewal journey I think is a great opportunity for that as well, and have it not feel so robotic and automated.

Kathy:

There’s a quick question that came in and it’s probably worth talking quickly about here, which is segments in renewals. So, from my understanding, a lot of what’s effective is looking at the utilization, and you could segment your user journey based on usage segmentation, big red flags for people who are not engaged at all, and then other types of rewards for people who are. And you could also segment based on the types of content that they are engaging with your subscription. What other ideas do you have, Sarah, on that?

Sarah:

Yeah. I mean, engagement, content types, payment methods, any other demographic info you can layer on as well. And what I think is really successful too, to just align your company internally is naming those segments. So, in the B2B SaaS world, we have our own way of doing this, but in the DTO C world, like zombies, your zombies are subscribers that have only engaged in XYZ content and haven’t engaged in X amount of time. And I’ve seen a lot of brands do this, but having funny names that work, but that way everyone is like, oh, I know what a zombie is. And here’s the messaging and approach, and it aligns everyone, I think, internally as well. So, even if you’re like, oh, we ran this promotion on this front, but then X percent were zombies, everyone just knows what that means, versus, oh, well, they weren’t as engaged.

Sarah:

Well, how do you define that? And whatever. So I think, again, when you’re looking at your entire subscription strategy, I’m just saying that would be really effective, is like, let’s look at our entire subscriber base, how do we want to define engagement? What’s a good subscriber? How do we find a good, highly engaged likelihood to renew? Et cetera. What do we call that? Colors, whatever works for your business, and then everything in between. And then that’s a way to think through the right way to engage with them.

Kathy:

Great.

Sarah:

Okay. And then number six, combating failed transactions. So, before I joined Recurly, this was a bit of a black hole for me. But then I’m realizing for actually a lot of other businesses that are also processing thousands or millions of transactions at scale is, all of a sudden, if you’re switching from a one time model to recurring, you’re charging that card monthly, quarterly, et cetera, there’s actually a 13% chance that that payment will fail. That’s pretty significant. So, I find a lot of brands you’re focused on, there’s a lot, to be fair, there’s a lot to focus on, and a lot of things that can get deprioritized, but this to me is the quickest win in the world of subscriptions, is this involuntary churn space. So, that’s anyone that isn’t proactively wanting to leave your service, but their card got declined.

Sarah:

And so, all of a sudden you’re having to kick them out as a customer, as in plain speak. And out of that 13% transactions at risk, 2000+ reasons that a card can get declined. So again, if you’re a small team and you’re having to be agile, you can’t manage this manually, we’ve seen some people try and then just… It’s a huge headache. And obviously, of all the priorities in your business, this to me is just the quickest win to automate. So, number one, you need visibility over what this looks like. A lot of brands we talked to don’t even know what this number looks like. Oh, actually we know our total churn number, but then can you break that down by voluntary churn versus involuntary. How much is actually a failed transaction versus someone voluntarily canceling your service? Because that’s a totally different way to look at churn.

Sarah:

And so then what’s your strategy to combat either of those? And so, automation and technology, there’s a lot of great platforms, Recurly just being one of them, but that’s actually what we set out to solve over 10 years ago, because it is really complex. If you’re thinking of billions of dollars of transactions, that’s what we’ve processed on our platform over 10 years. You can start seeing patterns, and you can start, through machine learning, understanding the best way to retry that payment and have that be a successful payment. So, there’s strategies to do it before to make sure that payment doesn’t even fail. So, if someone’s expiration date on their card changed, then we can catch that and update the card without your customer ever being notified or knowing that’s happened, just as one example.

Sarah:

And then when it’s actually failing, there’s ways to actually retry that payment at a more effective time. So, if your customer is in New York and we know that New York payday is most likely to be on the 15th versus the 28th, then that payment might get retried on the 15th or wait until that payday comes in. So, there’s a lot of complexity to this retrying of payments. And again, mostly it’s on the machine learning technology side, because if you manually tried to sort through all of this, it’d be a huge headache. And then also, on the after side, so say you weren’t able to successfully get that transaction, it failed, then how are you communicating that failed payment? Even that is such a nuanced thing to do that I find a lot of brands it’s like, okay, well let’s set it and forget it. Or we’re on a system where we can’t even change the copy or the messaging or anything, and it’s a really crappy experience.

Sarah:

Say I’m a big Peloton user and that’s a big deal in my life and I have been a loyal customer for three years, and all of a sudden I’m logging on to do my favorite workout at six in the morning and I can’t access it. And not understanding why, or just getting a really abrasive email saying update your credit card. Or you no longer going to get access to Netflix when I’ve been using Netflix for seven years, it doesn’t show that, again, that brand experience that you really need to be putting at the forefront. So, when you’re thinking of your dunning emails, so that’s those communications once a pay has failed, there’s a lot you can do to optimize that. So, you want to make sure the subject line is like clear, and then you also, usually, you treat dunning same with what I mentioned around renewal journeys, you treat it almost like another type of journey. What’s the dunning journey? How are we going to mop it? How many touchpoints? Over how many days? What’s the messaging?

Sarah:

Maybe when that first card, when it first fails, it’s a bit of a softer messaging, it’s like, hey, this happens, here’s your quick way to update it. It’s a little more of a softer message. And then it can get a little more like, by the seventh touch, it’s like, okay, you’re going to lose your service in three days if you don’t update it. And that is recommended once you get to that final cycle on the 21, 28-day mark of your dunning journey. But I just think it’s something to think at, okay, what do those messages look like? A lot of people don’t even know what they look like, don’t even know what they’re sending out to their customers. So, just being able to optimize those texts, different messaging, and have those be of equal brand importance to all the other communications you’re sending out is just something to look at. And then I also think a phenomenal stat that we found out through our own merchant data, is that once you are able to save that payment, a subscriber will stay with you for 12 more months.

Sarah:

So, the revenue impact is really significant. So again, just something to look at in terms of that entire subscriber life cycle and some areas you could optimize within that. And then global, so obviously a lot of brands we talk to, especially if you’re a digital-first or digital-only company, you are looking to expand to different regions. So, there’s a lot of things to consider there. Number one, is making sure you just have the right partners in region. I think that’s really, really important, is just making sure you’re asking, who’s based there? Who has that local expertise? Who can we talk to? Because it’s a lot to navigate I find internally, and a lot of times, a third-party partner that has done the same thing for other brands can help guide you in the right direction. There’s a lot of tax and compliance and regulatory considerations that you have to make sure you’re doing your research on, especially in the EU and things around data, payment methods as well.

Sarah:

Like I said earlier, sometimes people pick that one gateway because it’s the cheapest rate they can get and it’s what they’ve always used, but then all of a sudden their marketing team is like, hey, we’re ready to launch in Europe next month, but then on the finance backend operation side, it’s like, oh, well our gateway doesn’t support XYZ, and then that’s a big delay on actually getting the right partner in place. So that’s why, again, a multi gateway strategy is really important. And then looking at localized content and communications. So, I think the biggest thing around a global market, that we’ve heard from our customer base, is just don’t assume anything, I think also in the world of subscriptions in general. But one thing I liked that SoundCloud did is, instead of just saying, hey, we launched these new payment methods, they just surveyed their customer base and said, hey, would you rather pay on a different method? And they got the info they needed that way.

Sarah:

So, I think that’s another thing that we miss out on from a marketing business side, is just sometimes all you have to do is ask. And so, I think it’s getting your local partners in that area to help guide you, surveying anyone in that space to make sure you’re providing what you want. And then also, there’s another brand I was talking to that did a lot of legwork to localize their content, but then realized that their UK customers actually just wanted their US content, but they just wanted to pay in their local currency. So, that’s another thing, don’t over index too far, where it’s like, we’re launching in a new region, we need to overhaul our entire product plan, pricing, packaging, content, and launch this big thing. I think there’s a lot of MVP versions in different stages you can do to set you up for success and just learn along the way, because there isn’t a one size fits all approach, again, every business is super unique.

Sarah:

So, I think that’s something else just to think of, is just keep checking yourself to be like, are we assuming that this is the right approach? Because what’s a way we could do something on a smaller scale to just validate that before we launch anything that’s more resource-intensive.

Kathy:

Yeah. MVP is minimum viable product, in case anybody… It’s all good. And I think that’s important advice, is start offering things in local currency. And there are areas in markets where the consumers, even business consumers, pay via debit card, they don’t use credit cards. They use different types of payment methods than what’s common here in the US or even in the UK or Europe. So, crawl, walk, run is definitely a great strategy if you’re really going to be expanding globally.

Sarah:

And then I think this is a good segue, optimize. I think a lot of people, especially when I’m in these conversations with merchants, everyone just wants like, what’s the one thing we need to do or what’s the answer? And if there was one way to run every business or what works for everyone, we’d all be doing it. And that’s just not the case. So there’s, again, so many of the… So, that’s why I was hoping to just convey all the things I’m seeing across the space, what’s working, what’s not working, hopefully some aha moments across that subscriber lifecycle to look at. But it’s always about testing. So, look at your everything, look at that subscriber lifecycle, map that out. I know, Kathy, you alluded to Robbie Kellan Baxter, she’s amazing. She has a whole framework around member journeys and how to map that out. So I think, again, that’s the best place to start is like, what does that full member journey look like? And hopefully, some things I share today, it’s like, oh, well, actually we could add this step as well, we didn’t think about that.

Sarah:

And then look at those cohorts, like I said, if you want to name your zombies, your whatever, and what name you’re going to cohort your segments of subscribers. And then look at those and test different ways you can engage them, retain them, acquire them. And promotions, we had a large customer that was just testing something that seemed really simple, but it made a huge revenue impact, and that was offering 50% off for two months versus one month free. And the 50% off wielded way better long-term results, way better LTV, lifetime value, of their customers because there was a bit more of that commitment upfront. So, I think that’s an important thing to think of, too, when we’re launching like, okay, there’s a big seasonal thing coming up, let’s have a promotion around it. Or what else could we test? And what are the hypothesis and assumptions around that as well? And then monthly versus annual. So, I am seeing there’s a big shift happening towards a lot of brands moving from monthly to annual.

Sarah:

But I would caution, we did launch that survey today and I wrote down the number, 67% of US consumers still prefer to pay monthly. So, I think that it is that whole, you do need to put your customer first and just understand what works for them in the long haul. So, I think even though the annual seems obviously more compelling from a metrics and business standpoint, it’s like, okay, well, we can decrease our retention, we’re getting more money upfront. Just making sure, again, it goes back to those options that you might be leaving money on the table by not offering that monthly option as well. So, just something to think of. And then again, a lot of businesses are moving to renewal, but then again, you’re not really engaging or validating the service all year and then you’re hitting everyone with a payment, that could be pretty significant if you’re hitting them with another annual payment. So then that could have a really negative impact. So, just something to think of is, again, there’s pros and cons to both, but it’s just something to make sure that’s top of mind. And that’s it.

Sarah:

There was a lot packed in there so we can dive into questions. I’m happy to geek out over any of these topics. But overall, again, think beyond just what’s within your paid subscription and the value you’re offering and how you’re engaging your subscribers, making sure you’re not offering this one size fits all approach. Even though it might be easier for you to set up on the business side, it’s not what customers are wanting and demanding right now. And in order to just keep up, get ahead of that now versus realizing it’s too late. Payments, again, really complex. Lot to dig into there. I could do a whole separate presentation around payments, but again, just make sure you have the right partners, that multi-gateway strategy and ultimate alternate payment methods.

Sarah:

So again, something like PayPal, don’t make that assumption because I never… If I was the CEO of a startup, I’d be like, who’s ever using PayPal these days? And then there you go, lots of people. Crypto is something, again, that’s launching, and Venmo. And to Kathy’s point, debit is still really popular in a lot of regions, so just making sure you’re looking at that and that’s also something you can AB test, our customers AB test that. Let’s do checkout experiences where we’re offering one payment method here and one here and then let’s see what the long-term impact is. And I guess one thing too, Kathy, I know you and I talked about this, but a lot of times, back to the AB testing of things, in a subscription business, you need to have patience.

Sarah:

So many people are like, let’s just launch this thing, in all businesses that happens, where it’s like, okay, what was the impact? Report back, 30 days, 60 days. But in a subscription model, sometimes it takes a year, sometimes more than that. If you’re moving to annual, maybe it’s 15 months. So, I think that it’s a whole mindset shift, a lot of businesses are moving to this subscription model and a recurring revenue model, so sometimes you have to remind your teams internally of that, too. We’re going to take some bets on some things, but let’s set the expectation upfront that we might not know the true impact, but we all just have to trust, to lean into that, because it’s worth testing. You don’t want to be a business that doesn’t want to change anything or test anything because you’re not going to be competitive, you’re not going to learn. But you just have to be patient.

Kathy:

Or the corollary to that is, oh, we tested that how many eons ago and it didn’t work then, so we’re not going to test it again. Well, test it again, because you never know.

Sarah:

Yeah. And to what subscriber base. There’s so many different things to think of. And then the renewals, failed transactions, again, that’s a quick win. That to me, is just a black hole for a lot of businesses and a leaky bucket of revenue. And you’re spending all this money to acquire customers upfront and it’s the easiest way to just stop them from churning. And then you can focus on the voluntary churn side, because that’s a lot more intricate. And that’s something where you have to be a little more strategic. Technology can help you solve the fail transactions piece. And then going global, I think that whole walk, crawl… No, crawl, walk, run approach that Kathy had mentioned is a really good thing to test there. And again, make sure you have the right local partners, and then optimize and test everything and try to make sure you’re not making assumptions. Because as I mentioned, the live content versus on-demand, I had no idea, I learned that two weeks ago.

Sarah:

So, I think these types of conversations hopefully are helping. I think also, don’t forget to reach out to people in your network. I found, especially during the pandemic, I myself am guilty of that. There’s just less knowledge sharing, so the more you can join round tables, webinars, reach out to your network, and just learn what they’re doing, what’s working, what’s not, it’ll make everyone better.

Kathy:

So, well, let’s start into some questions. I know that when we started I wanted to get from you some ideas where things are different. So, if I’m a business-to-business media company versus a business-to-consumer, are there certain things that you mentioned that are going to be more low-hanging fruit for B2-B versus B2C or vice versa?

Sarah:

A lot. Well, first of all, on the media side I’m seeing a lot of people service both. So, it’s like you have that B2-B arm and the B2C side. So, I’m seeing on the B2B monetization side, so it depends on the business. So, let’s say we’re just talking about a publisher, for the sake of this conversation, because we could go into streaming B2B looks different than more traditional publishing. I’m seeing a lot more flexibility on the offerings, so again, where a lot of brands like, because everything has been crazy the last couple years. Even, Kathy, you and I work together, you’re a B2B publisher, it’s like we’re a lot more hesitant to sign up for X number of events, X number of things. And a lot of times it’s a little more flexible, like, hey, we’ll pay you X amount per month, or annually, quarterly to get this value. But then we might want to pick and choose, almost like a menu. Again, it’s that bundling.

Sarah:

Think of the same B2C principles around your FabFitFun box, you have a hundred different products, how do you pick and choose and bundle by month? And I’m seeing that come up as a bigger trend in the B2B publishing space, where it’s like, hey, we’ll spend X amount per month, per quarter, but I don’t know if it’s going to look like an in-person event this quarter or a webinar next quarter, because everything’s so inflex. So, I think having a bit more flexibility on the B2B front is really important. And then just making things easy as well. I think, just in general, we’re moving, everything’s leveraging technology more. A lot less old school, invoices, and this and that. It’s a lot more like, hey, get me my credit card, and it’s maybe less of a commitment upfront, not seen as many of the big multi-year agreements. But it’s, again, that retainer package will spend X amount at a lower volume and then pick and choose what we need based on the priorities of our business. And then the B2C side, you mean just…

Kathy:

Just a higher volume type of business, what are some low-hanging fruit results that you think?

Sarah:

Yeah. I think the whole product diversification. I’d say a lot of brands right now and I’m seeing this shift, the mindset shift happening, is they’re like, well, that’s not our brand, we’re this hundred-year-old brand that’s very esteemed and we would never do crosswords or something, we would never do horoscopes. And I think that’s a big… It’s the whole fixed mindset versus growth mindset, and that can still be applied to companies and brands. I think we just have to accept things are changing and fast, and there’s all these new things to learn, so again, not making exceptions. But maybe if you’re a publisher that’s been around 80 years, maybe there is this new-gen Z audience you could grab by digesting complicated topics. Maybe that’s a newsletter subscription. Or maybe your business audience actually just is tired and wants a fun crossword, and maybe they’re not willing to give… They still love your brand, but maybe they’ll pay you $2 a month for this crossword instead of $14 a month, or whatever, for a physical subscription.

Sarah:

But again, it’s giving that options, and I think it’s getting out of your own way over what could be possible, and experimenting with different types of product offerings and different payment methods. Again, that big sports company, that’s a great idea. I’m not a huge sports fan, but if there’s a big game on that everyone’s talking about and I’m like, yeah, I’ll pay $4 for that one game to be part of that experience, but I’m not necessarily going to sign up for an annual membership. So, how do you still capture those types of customers as well?

Kathy:

Really, really good points. We have a number of different questions in here. There’s a couple that are focused on compliance in the UK and in the US on subscription renewal, notification, and transparency. I’ll tell you my two cents. First of all, when somebody’s canceling, if you can make a great cancellation experience, they’re going to come back because they’re going to love you. And I think all of us as consumers, we go through a bad cancellation experience, that company just leaves a bad taste and we’re not coming back. So, it’s really in our own interest to have a great, great renewal and cancellation experience. The challenge is too many companies have made it hard, and so there’s a lot of legislation that’s actually already active in the US and coming up in more states.

Kathy:

Actually, Tennessee announced, one of the states, last week that they have a new law. So, we have a lot of states here that are passing auto-renew and cancellation regulations, and it’s only going to be enforced more and more at the national level and across other countries like the UK. So, it’s not only in your best interest, but it’s going to be the law to really make sure you have a clean and clear cancellation, renewal, notifications, and all of that to protect the consumers. So, any other thoughts on that, Sarah?

Sarah:

Yeah. And I’d say again, it’s that mindset shift where a lot of businesses are panicking, like, oh crap, you’re going to make it really easy. But it’s like, why are you scared then? Do you not think you’re delivering the right value at the right place to your subscriber? Focus on that then is a problem, because the world is changing, people are getting savvier. Even just in the last five years, the amount people are spending on subscriptions, understanding their subscription models, there’s apps now developed to manage all the subscriptions you have. So, that’s not going to go away, so instead of panicking and maybe trying to hack around it, that is just going to be the case.

Sarah:

So, it’s more like, how do we get more flexible? Okay. If we are going to see people leaving, then how could we offer them maybe something one time. So, FabFitFun, maybe we have our box every month, but then if they’re going to churn them, we’ll offer something at a smaller scale. Or how do we get more creative about those offerings so that we’re not leaving money on the table and giving people that flexibility. Because again, it’s not going to go away. And I think it’s just goes back to like, okay, well what are we offering? What’s the value? How do we continue to drive that? How do we get great feedback? Because to your point, it’s the law.

Kathy:

Absolutely. So, we have enough further questions. There’s some around segmentation, acquisition and other things. If you can stay a few more minutes, I’d like to take those questions. And then any of the other questions that come in, we can follow up with all of you offline. If you don’t do it anonymously and ask your question with your name, we can follow up directly with you.

Sarah:

Yeah. And my email’s on this slide too. Hopefully, you can read it. Shoot me an email I’m happy to… Or LinkedIn or wherever, and we could follow up with a one-on-one.

Kathy:

Absolutely. So, let’s dive into segmentation. So, I’m going to give my low-hanging fruit and then an example from a keynote last year at the subscription show, and I bet you’re going to have a few others. So, the first thing I’d look at just for low-hanging fruit, again that we mentioned, is utilization. So, you need to understand how many people are using your products, do some quintile analysis and create tracks based on your lowest fifth, your highest fifth, and the medium and just create messaging and trying to engage them, so that’s number one. The other side of this, and I’m looking at a bunch of questions here, so Fortune magazine was one of our keynotes last year and they talked about a lot of what they did in terms of segmentation, and they had a traditional print brand and then they did digital.

Kathy:

And so, I’m addressing the digital-savvy question here. They ended up changing their editorial based on their digital savvy group that was reading their app versus their print magazine. So, their app and their digital products were covering cryptocurrency, as an example, much more heavily than in their print. So, they understood the differences between the different types of platforms that they’re publishing on and slowly evolved. So, that’s another type of segmentation example. So, over to you, Sarah.

Sarah:

No, it’s a good point. And I think also, I am seeing a bit of a shift, it used to be demographics, I think, in the consumer space and that is shifting, there are just younger… I think we can’t, again, make those assumptions as much around, this type of audience wants these things. It is looking at it on a more one-to-one basis, so we have engagement and usage and what type of content people want, and then making sure you’re building that out. So, for the example, say you are the Food Network and you have a paid subscription and someone came in for a turkey recipe, around Thanksgiving, because you had a promotion around that. That doesn’t mean they just want to see turkey content for their entire life with the Food Network. Or holiday meals or whatever.

Sarah:

So, I think you also need to build out that profile. Yes, that might be what you know about them coming in, but that’s the beauty of a subscription, is then now you’re getting this ongoing feedback and engagement. And how are you building out what that makeup looks like? And obviously, through content tags and things, you can be smart about it. But I think it’s not just like, oh, this person came in and they like turkeys and whatever. It’s like, okay, how else can we gain information from them? So PopBox, one of our customers does a really great job of a survey once you sign up. So, a lot of people, obviously on the checkout experience on a subscription, everyone’s really hesitant to add more steps. You want that to be a one-click checkout and a lot of the cases that is best practice. But then how else? So, maybe once someone’s engaged and maybe you have an engagement segment that’s built out for this, and once someone unlocks X amount of engagement, then you survey them to learn more.

Sarah:

Then you’re actually getting more of that data you want on that subscriber. And a lot of is if you sign up for Netflix or whatever, or some publishers, it’s like, tell me what your interests are. Don’t be afraid to, again, ask. Because again, I looked at one piece of content this one time doesn’t mean that’s all I want and that’s why I’ve subscribed. So, I think don’t lose sight of opportunities throughout your life cycle to check-in, give them more options. Maybe test in an email, here’s three different categories of content, let me see what they engage with, and that’s going to help build my algorithm around that segment of a person and understanding you more as a subscriber.

Kathy:

Anybody who’s listened to me for a little bit has heard me say this before, you need to understand what the trigger was for conversion, that initial conversion to your subscription, and why they’re staying on and renewing. Because more often than not it’s two different reasons, because they had a pressing need to convert, especially if you’re content-based subscription, and then you need to understand why they are continuing to stay with you. And your messaging and that renewal journey needs to evolve based on that. So, quick question, speaking of converting, are there any best practices for subscriptions leveraging, let’s say, e-commerce tactics of an abandoned shopping cart? What’s your thinking on that?

Sarah:

Yeah, totally. I think e-commerce-type businesses were first to the space. Well, not first, but I think they’re doing really interesting things on the technology side. So, I do that all the time, go look at the tech on an Allbirds type brand and see what they’re doing and see how you could replicate that model from a content publishing perspective. So, I always am looking at that, because for them, every second for a checkout, all their retargeting, their recommendation engines, it’s pretty advanced. So, there’s a lot of best practices you can learn from that. But I’d say again, having different payment methods, having a one-click checkout is really important.

Sarah:

But then again, it’s like, okay, if you’re not getting all the information you were hoping to get on that subscriber once they sign up, how else can you get that across their entire journey with you is just something to think of as well. So, I do think optimizing that checkout to be as tight as possible. And then maybe even once someone has signed up, maybe that last step, thanks, you’re now a subscriber pick and choose your interests and what you want out of your product or service. That might be the right time, versus before checkout. But that’s, again, one of many things to test.

Kathy:

Right. And if you’re capturing that email up at the front, you can do some rescue campaigns if they have abandoned. One quick comment before I ask you a final question, Sarah, is wallets. We did talk about wallets. And there’s a question that came in, you can use wallets and PayPal for recurring subscriptions, the answer is absolutely. I mean, even ACH, you can have subscriptions through those wallets in ACH every month, if you want. So, they’re an effective strategy if you’re really trying to expand payment methods. So, Sarah, what do you see? So, final question for you, and anything we didn’t get to, which is great, I love all these questions coming in. Final question, what do you see coming next? We’ve just covered eight things and a lot of really great ideas, which is fabulous, but on the horizon, what do you see coming up that we need to start thinking about and getting our heads around with our subscription companies?

Sarah:

Yeah. The one thing I keep talking about is the creator economy. As someone that’s an active Instagram user, there’s now these brands being built around and they’re wanting to own their audience directly. So, think of Half Baked Harvest, if anyone follows her, she has a huge following, started just Instagram posting about her recipes and now she has a whole media empire. I think that’s the new wave of media companies, and Shopify’s enabling that, too, in the e-commerce side. People that are just being able to create their own brands go direct to consumers. So, I’d say taking that, finding ways to partner and collaborate and almost replicate that model is going to be interesting. I’m surprised more giant media companies aren’t creating, like the Bleacher report.

Sarah:

It’s starting to happen, like Morning Brew, The Skimm, Bleacher Report, Barstool Sports, all these cool D2C type models, but in the media and streaming space. So, I’d be surprised if that doesn’t start happening more, either just acquisitions around these influencer media companies or developing your own in-house. Tasty does a really good job at this, which is part of, I think, the Buzzfeed network, but creating their own micro-influencer and influencer communities, so there’s more of a voice. So, I think more people want to connect with the humans behind a company and not just have it be a streaming platform or a way to access the content. So, how do you have that more curated? How do you elevate and develop personalities and brands within your company? And also making sure you’re not banking all in one.

Sarah:

So, I’ve also seen companies fail, where they had their one finance investor voice and he did all their emails, all their videos, all their content. And then if he does leave the company, then yeah, bye. And so, developing a few key voices, and that, I think, really enhances your, again, the brand voice and tone and that engagement with your subscribers. So, I think that’s… We’ve talked about everything else, NFTs and crypto and the whole live content versus on-demand, giving a lot of different options, the micropayments. I think that’s all really interesting, too, in this space. But I think also that content creator influencer economy is going to be something to look at.

Kathy:

I really love that concept and really thinking it through for our own subscription businesses. So, great suggestion and something to think about as we move forward. So, Sarah, thank you very, very much for a really insightful session today. And I’d like to thank all of you for hanging with us and learning and asking some great questions. So, everybody, thank you. And until next time, you take care.

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